Objectification of lesbians =/= social acceptance of gayness

[cimorene]

There's this post on today's metafandom that pissed me off so severely just from the summary that I had to pause before going to read it.

darkhecatemoon in project_slash: Discussion: Objectification - A friend of mine (a vegan, earth-lovin', liberal, anti-capitalist, hippie friend of mine) recently started a group on Facebook called the "Society for the Non-Objectification of Lesbians."...// I do not think that being viewed as an object of lust/sexual attraction/whatever is degrading. In fact, if men can accept so-called "lesbianism" isn't that a step forward for homosexuals in general? I think so. I think that anything that acknowledges nontraditional sexualities is a good thing.

For one thing, the more I look at this summary, the more offended I am by her list of adjectives for her friend. Perhaps her readers weren't going to grasp her opinion that her friend is just a big ol' spoilsport without that litany of what she obviously sees as negative qualities. Earth-loving? Anti-capitalist? She must be a hysterical man-hater and we shouldn't take her seriously! She's obviously dropped out of society and is therefore irrelevant!

For another thing, I'm astonished by her description of lesbians' priviledge to be seen as non-threatening by heterosexual male desire as a step forward. Is she honestly under the impression that that objectification is a new development, or that any positive acceptance of homosexuality as a whole as valid and non-deviant would be its logical consequence? Lesbian desire was largely irrelevant through much of the history of Western society's criminalisation of male homosexual desire - or it was occasionally pathologised instead, the women portrayed as hysterical and stuck in mental institutions; but it was hardly persecuted in the same way.

This is the reality of social acceptance of gayness and objectification of lesbians. A couple of years ago, I lived for a few months with my aunt and uncle, and my aunt and I were talking about coming out and what my three-year-old cousin's life would be like if he were gay. My uncle was saying that he isn't homophobic, but when my aunt said, "What will you say to Perrin if he turns out to be gay, then?" My uncle responded immediately, "He won't be."

"You don't know that," said my aunt. "He could be! What if he is?"

"No, he couldn't," said my uncle. "He won't."

My aunt and I pointed out how impossible it was to predict, offered population-percentage statistics; but he remained completely unmoved and adamant that it simply wasn't possible. His attitude wasn't aggressive or angry in the least, it was baffled. He's an extreme liberal who honestly believes that there's not a molecule of prejudice in him, and also honestly believes there is no possibility his son could be gay. He maintaned the baffled attitude until my aunt pointed out that his attitude could be offensive to me, whereupon he hastened to assure us that he loves me, and likes lesbians, of course!

"That," said my aunt, "is because they're not threatening to you."

"I'm not threatened," he said uncomfortably. "It's just, that's gross."

This, by the way, is my female cousin [other side of the family]'s attitude to gay men as well, and used to be her attitude to lesbians some time before I came out ("Because what if they hit on you?"), although she later moved on to teasing her boyfriend with the possibility of a threesome ("Only if you can get Britney Spears to agree to it." "What about a lookalike?" "No.").

Is this to say that sexual fantasy is wrong, or degrading? Of course not. But sexual fantasies are not the same thing as political activism, because finding something hot in your sexual fantasies isn't the same thing as advocating for it in reality, as fans of all kinds of porn popular in fandom can assure you (incest and chan, for the most widespread examples).

Comments

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw that post and was just like...bzuh? She goes on (esp. in comments) about how slashers do the same to guys, asking their friends to make out, etc. and I'm like uh...that sort of thing creeps me out, too! It makes me really uncomfortable how a lot of slashers view gay guys as their little dolls or something. It's patronising.

[thawrecka]

That post pissed me off, too, and for the same reasons. The fact that the OP could not understand what could possibly be wrong with sexual objectifation just really annoyed me.

[mirabella]

In fact, if men can accept so-called "lesbianism" isn't that a step forward for homosexuals in general?

...what the fuck? How old is this person? And can she really be that entirely ignorant of, like, every skeevy made-for-straight-guys porn movie in the history of cinema?

[melle.livejournal.com]

i am frightened to this day of kissing a girl in a public place, because on my very first date with a girl we were approached by this random pervert guy, which frightened me to death. and did not make me feel especially "socially accepted" either.

that whole post is annoying, but the thing that i keep thinking about is her throwaway mention of "nontraditional sexualities." PLURAL. because, ahahaha, there are SO MANY that we would like welcomed into society! i can think of several right off: bestiality (it is the logical next step for homos, rick santorum says so), pedophilia, and The Gaye. perverts are people too!

\wow, rant, sorry. D:

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. That post is appalling.

[guinevere33.livejournal.com]

I have had so. many. people. ask me why faux lipstick lesbians piss me off. Making out with your roommate in public to get attention just perpetuates the myth that lesbianism only exists for male enjoyment, rather than being a real sexuality and subculture that has - *gasp* - nothing to do with men. /rant

[revulo.livejournal.com]

Very good! Especially about the first part...that annoyed me, greatly.
I'm...a bit baffled by your uncle's responses. Just wow...

Is this to say that sexual fantasy is wrong, or degrading? Of course not. But sexual fantasies are not the same thing as political activism, because finding something hot in your sexual fantasies isn't the same thing as advocating for it in reality, as fans of all kinds of porn popular in fandom can assure you (incest and chan, for the most widespread examples).

Hee hee, thank goodness. Else I would have to throw away some of my favorite RP logs, lol. *lurks*

[cimness.livejournal.com]

I don't think advocating for polyamory would be as problematic as advocating for incest or chan, though.

[geeklite.livejournal.com]

I'm not even sure what 'so-called "lesbianism"' is supposed to mean.

[anatsuno.livejournal.com]

wow, I can't believe someone out there can think that right this minute - someone semi-articulate and who GAVE IT THOUGHT.

I'm also very, very happy to have the liberty behind my eyelids and in my fiction to objectify men and women alike, yes. But to think to two have a connection, objectification and actual tolerance... yeah, ima go with "moron".

[norah.livejournal.com]

OMG. I think I missed that metafandom. *FACEPALM*

I am taking away her girl license. I swear to god. She can't play in my clubhouse anymore. Have you read Ariel Levy's "Raunch Culture"? It's full of stuff like this. I do not grok the "post-feminist" mindset, I SO don't.

Also your uncle's non-homophobic license is revoked. WTF WORLD.

Nice post.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

I have read your posts about Levy, and have heard her mentioned elsewhere, but I haven't read it myself, no. I'm familiar with the concept, though. And in general, the whole concept of post-feminism. Sadly, the concept of post-feminism isn't really known in Finland because they haven't even got that far. They're still at the stage where young men are all, "Feminism? What's that?" and, most memorably, when a doctoral student in Women's Studies gave an introduction to the most basic ideological movements in classic feminism and compared it to demanding an equal share of the cake, some moron raised his hand and was like "But it's men who have BAKED the cake!"

[norah.livejournal.com]

Oh my god. I revoke their PERSON licenses. The world! I despair!

[anglepoiselamp.livejournal.com]

Oh my god. I have no words to describe how much I want to punch that poster. Repeatedly.

And I think you should write an extremely sarcastic reply to the post. -____-

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

This is the nutcase who said it was immoral for people to read incest porn and not fully support all real life permutations of incest, so... not so much with the sanity.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha. Um... atleast she's... consistent?