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cimorene1. Thoughtless rudeness is still just as rude as a racist conspiracy; the intent is different but the effect is just as harmful, and when you're a minority watching the majority culture reproduce the patterns that marginalise you, it doesn't matter to you in practise if they're doing it on purpose or not.
2. The last thing that any discussion of prejudice or offense needs is for minorities to be told to watch their tone. (It's the most frequent and most offensive demand I've seen in all these debates as they keep coming up again and again, and a persistent attachment to it is pretty much a permanent loss of my respect.) Unfortunately, they hear that so often that they're all well aware of its necessity if they wish to be listened to, and if they ever neglect to be polite it's no doubt in momentary frustration and with the full knowledge that they're going to be ignored by the people who need to listen to them as a result of their temporariy satisfaction.
3. Usually there's no reason to think there is a conspiracy, because no conspiracy is necessary to plausibly explain the widespread thoughtless behaviour, alas: culture-centrism is built into all cultures. To put it another way, the most fundamental characteristic of culture is its ability to make itself seem natural, logical, unchangeable, and taken for granted by its members. This is why raising the consciousness of the majority is a lot of work for other people even when the majority are trying to work at it too: it's impossible for most people to train their brains to question things which seem fundamental.
4. Because of #3, to members of the majority who are trying, or who consider themselves to be trying, intent is the most important element in every interaction. For a member of the majority, trying is the big challenge. This position is exactly the opposite of the minority's (see #1) and leads to even more conflict.
5. I parsed Merryish's admittedly defensive and confrontational statement as meaning it was offensive that Mama Deb (seemed to) imply a racist conspiracy was at work and not - as I see a lot of people interpreting it - as meaning that the act of stating her discomfort was inherently offensive. It's an understandable mistake since the latter is the position that many people take, but there is in fact a difference. In effect, it's a comment about her tone, and not a direct demand that she shut up. (As to whether the OP actually implied a racist conspiracy was at work, I think going only from the original post that's debatable. It read that way at first glance, but another look showed me the other interpretation.)
6. In this particular drama, while the discussion of racism is still very much relevant, the fact that the sign-ups were open for two weeks (and that such information is of course readily available to any interested parties at the community) renders the initial suspicion of conspiracy ludicrous. The long period of sign-ups is obviously intended to accomodate people who might be busy or absent for part or, indeed, most of the period; it's not like it's a week-long process.
2. The last thing that any discussion of prejudice or offense needs is for minorities to be told to watch their tone. (It's the most frequent and most offensive demand I've seen in all these debates as they keep coming up again and again, and a persistent attachment to it is pretty much a permanent loss of my respect.) Unfortunately, they hear that so often that they're all well aware of its necessity if they wish to be listened to, and if they ever neglect to be polite it's no doubt in momentary frustration and with the full knowledge that they're going to be ignored by the people who need to listen to them as a result of their temporariy satisfaction.
3. Usually there's no reason to think there is a conspiracy, because no conspiracy is necessary to plausibly explain the widespread thoughtless behaviour, alas: culture-centrism is built into all cultures. To put it another way, the most fundamental characteristic of culture is its ability to make itself seem natural, logical, unchangeable, and taken for granted by its members. This is why raising the consciousness of the majority is a lot of work for other people even when the majority are trying to work at it too: it's impossible for most people to train their brains to question things which seem fundamental.
4. Because of #3, to members of the majority who are trying, or who consider themselves to be trying, intent is the most important element in every interaction. For a member of the majority, trying is the big challenge. This position is exactly the opposite of the minority's (see #1) and leads to even more conflict.
5. I parsed Merryish's admittedly defensive and confrontational statement as meaning it was offensive that Mama Deb (seemed to) imply a racist conspiracy was at work and not - as I see a lot of people interpreting it - as meaning that the act of stating her discomfort was inherently offensive. It's an understandable mistake since the latter is the position that many people take, but there is in fact a difference. In effect, it's a comment about her tone, and not a direct demand that she shut up. (As to whether the OP actually implied a racist conspiracy was at work, I think going only from the original post that's debatable. It read that way at first glance, but another look showed me the other interpretation.)
6. In this particular drama, while the discussion of racism is still very much relevant, the fact that the sign-ups were open for two weeks (and that such information is of course readily available to any interested parties at the community) renders the initial suspicion of conspiracy ludicrous. The long period of sign-ups is obviously intended to accomodate people who might be busy or absent for part or, indeed, most of the period; it's not like it's a week-long process.
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(no subject)
Date: 14 Oct 2007 10:18 pm (UTC)In fact, there is some benefit to signing up later, because once most of the signups are in, it's easier to tell what the balance between fandoms requested and fandoms offered is.
The other issue about the conspiracy suspicion is that one of the mods and creators of the exchange is herself Jewish. Given that, I'm not going to say that obviously, the mods are ignorant about other cultures, because that sounds to much like me, not Jewish, telling other people that they're insufficiently Jewish. Having been told that I'm not black enough, I'm really not going to go there.
(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 01:08 am (UTC)As well, it takes a certain amount of chutzpah to begin a contest like Yuletide and actually follow-through on the promise of the name and, say, have the exchange end on the Solstice. After all, a Jew might rationalize that having the exchange happen on Christmas makes the vast majority of participants happy, while only making a very small minority of participants (or potential participants) unhappy. And if that person in a position of power isn't one who'd feel unhappy and instead identifies with and wants to satisfy the happiness of the majority, the minority may well be seen as not all that important (especially if they can justify it to themselves in terms like, "Well, I'm Jewish and it doesn't bother me."
I'm not claiming to know what's on teh mod's mind in all this, but I do want to make it clear that having a Jewish fan involved clearly doesn't necessarily lead to increased sensitivity toward more observant Jews who might feel uncomfortable taking part in what is quite clearly defined as a Christian ritual.
(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 01:36 am (UTC)I'm not arguing that. My point is that I found it interesting that many people immediately assumed, based on
(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 03:02 am (UTC)Jews are told, year after year, that Christmas would be more fun for them if they just got into the spirit of things. We're told that it's not really a Christian tradition (and no, much of it is not, as it was incorporated by Christians in an explicit and very successful attempt to convert pagans to Christianity).
There are plenty of Jews who walk around every day with no particular identity as Jewish. They celebrate Christmas, marry Christians, baptize their children... and there are plenty of Jews who have a Jewish identity who will say that they've never experienced anti-semitism!
Fandom is ignorant of Jewish culture, and if willful ignorance can be considered offensive, then yes, I'd say it was a deliberate offense. It's not as if the question of Christmas gift exchanges and Jews has only just come up this year. Every year that I've been in fandom, I've seen it come up, and every year, I've seen Christians say that, "Jews aren't compelled to participate in Secret Santa exchanges" and "Yuletide isn't really a Christian holiday" and even, "But Christmas isn't really a Christian holiday. And isn't Chanukah just the Jewish Christmas anyway? So what's the big deal?"
(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 03:35 am (UTC)...I'm actually well aware of that. Once again, my point is that for me, I don't feel comfortable saying to someone else--someone I happen to know is Jewish--"You're being ignorant of your own culture." It's not appropriate for me to lecture someone else, which is why I'm not going to attempt to argue about the mods' knowledge or lack thereof of Jewish culture.
(no subject)
Date: 18 Oct 2007 06:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 03:49 am (UTC)This is an honest question, btw. I know in my neighborhood there are different 'types' of Jewish folks (for ex. one group the women all wear below-the-knee skirts, and there's the men with a hat and beard, plus I know there's a large population in the area of people who identify as Jewish but do not follow any kind of dress code) but I don't know if Judaism as a religion is as segmented as Christianity as a religion is, where different denominations may actually know very little about the way others practice.
(Also, am not denying that there probably is quite a bit of pressure on Jews to assimilate Christian culture. Just asking a tangental question. :) )
(And has someone really called Chanukah "Jewish Christmas"?)
(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 04:48 am (UTC)As for the assimilation question... yes, there are varying practices among Jews. There are actual movements within Judaism with differing practices. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform are the big three, though there are others, and those three names often describe a wide variety of people, all of whom may call themselves "Orthodox," "Conservative," or "Reform." In a sense, Reform is the most assimilated in that it's the branch that's adapted ancient practice to the modern world (adapting is part of assimilating, though assimilating has the more negative connotation).
Because of the history of Christian co-opting of other faith's practices in an attempt to lure people to Christianity, I'd say that Jews with no Jewish identity (who don't even call themselves Jewish, except perhaps to note that their grandparents were) are assimilated. And Jews who have Christmas trees, celebrate Christmas, and don't understand why other Jews don't are assimilated.
Assimilation really means no longer distinct.
In terms of Yuletide, if a Jew joins it, they are able to join it under the condition that they accept assimilation. They may well be addressed as "Dear Yuletide Santa" by their gift recipient. When they go to the Yuletide site, they will see reference to "Deck the Halls," a Welsh song that was turned into a Christmas carol in 1881 (thus the song itself points back to Christian assimilation of all things festive during the season). And the day of the gift release is Christmas, which means that if you don't want to receive a Christmas present, you have to wait to open it while, all around you, Christian fans open their present on their holiday.
Anyway--that's what I mean by assimilation. It's not a Borg thing, but rather a series of steps or moments in which each Jew has a choice to remain different or to go along with the majority practice.
(no subject)
Date: 15 Oct 2007 05:17 am (UTC)Your thoughts on assimilation are interesting. (I'm personally agnostic, so I generally tend to just not think about such things because I'm rarely thinking about religion at all- and religion is something tough to talk to a lot of people about so it's a lot of times easier to just not ask questions, you know?)
Jewish Christmas! (Like I said before (I think) I live in an area with a high practicing-Jewish population, so many local people have at least a general notion of things, even if they aren't Jewish, so you don't hear stuff like that too often around here. Plus people are generally quite friendly, so if you don't know, you can ask and they'll happily share. I'm sure elsewhere in the city/suburbs you probably do hear weird stuff.)
(no subject)
Date: 18 Oct 2007 05:51 am (UTC)And although I'm not a writer, if I were to participate in the Yuletide story exchange, I'd take pleasure in being someone's Santa because I'd chosen to be a gift giver and I don't see it as taking any mantle of another religion to give a gift in a season that is filled with that type of sharing. I find much pleasure getting to enjoy the grace and joy of the holiday of many of my friends, and I make every attempt to share my holiday's grace and joy with them, even when they're weeks apart or overlap.
In terms of Yuletide, if a Jew joins it, they are able to join it under the condition that they accept assimilation.
I cannot agree that in taking part in a fic exchange (or Secret Santa gift exchange) that I'm assimilated. After participating in such an event, I'm still the same person - a practicing, Conservative Jew - but I've gotten the opportunity to share in ways that deepen my friendships and may allow better understandings between what I hold dear and what my friends do too. I don't see that taking part is a one-way experience.
(no subject)
Date: 18 Oct 2007 12:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 18 Oct 2007 12:14 pm (UTC)via MF
Date: 18 Oct 2007 01:50 pm (UTC)