self-reinforcing Fandom Positivity memes and sampling error

[cimorene]

I've just seen another of those viral posts go by saying 'As a writer we obsess over researching and fact-checking but as a reader we never check' [implying the fact-checking is potentially unnecessary].

And the point of this post isn't 'as a reader I DO frequently notice errors that could have been researched' - because indeed, most people can't avoid noticing errors from their areas of knowledge, so it's just a matter of how often your reading intersects with those areas. I've posted about that point before and commented often enough on other people's posts on the subject - on subjects as diverse as gas stations, horse shoes, life in modern Norway and Finland and Estonia, how schools and cars work in the US and UK, medieval rabbit-keeping, stone age and bronze age techology, and early modern undergarments... ahem.

Anyway, the point isn't that if it's a thing that plenty of people know about, they're going to notice, and there are plenty of people who DO know how horse shoes work or what percentage of Norwegian or Estonian adults speak English, so if you don't know why WOULDN'T you check?

And the point also isn't that I do also fact-check things I'm reading frequently, regardless of whether they're fiction or not; I'm a curious person and love trivia, and when something sounds suspicious, my default position is to check (and this is true of plenty of other people too, obviously).

The point is that the structure of this type of viral post is self-reinforcing (encourages response from people who agree and non-engagement from people who don't, so there is no way to count dislikes/disagrees), and while that is sometimes value-neutral, because lots of 'so relatable' posts are perfectly true of lots of people and make no claims to universality, it can also oftentimes be used to convey a false impression of general relevance in the genre of Fandom Positivity posts (perhaps I should say memes, because they're recurrent ideas and debates).

There's a whole genre of posts about fandom and fanfiction and writing meant to be positive or reassuring which generally and repeatedly argue that

• (a) fic writers are just too self-critical, because (b) nobody in the audience is going to notice anyway


(A) is valid¹ because too much self-criticism can lead to writer's block and many people struggle with it, but (b) is not true; criticism based on fact-checking is a normal feature of how people respond to media and non-fiction, so the claim is not really credible anyway, but negative comments and flames are also a thing in some parts of fandom; so denying that this is a danger isn't doing anybody any favors, even if it did convince them. It could be helpful to discuss how flames and other negative responses are rare in most parts of fandom instead.

1. Unless it's about thinking they need to beta their fic before they post it; that isn't overly critical, it's exactly correct in that it is the choice that's most civilized and considerate of the other people in their community.


• (a) readers who are intimidated by the idea of leaving comments are just being too self-critical, because (b) no matter what it says authors are always overjoyed to receive more comments


(A) always struck me as a little condescending, because I don't think that social anxieties about commenting to a possible stranger are actually reducible just to a fear that what you say won't be smart enough. On the other hand, it's true in making feedback comments, like in communicating in a foreign language, that the important thing is getting the feel of your message across and it doesn't matter if the presentation isn't a flawless marvel of diplomatic eloquence - and this is probably the true essence of what the well-meaning posts of the above type are trying to get across. They often get sidetracked into layers of testiomonials to (b), however, which isn't really true because fandom has plenty of people with anxieties about inboxes to go around, and lots of other people don't want their readers guilted into feedback; and because there have been plenty of comments over the years that deliberately or accidentally offended the writer (or someone else). It's safe to say that very few authors are happy to receive unintentionally offensive, argumentative, or otherwise disturbing comments (leaving flames aside for the moment). If worrying a little over whether your comment is really going to be welcome can cause some people to change their minds about a comment that otherwise would have told the author that the fic was great except they were wrong to characterize X as a top, or except that they would have been emotionally satisfied if the author included their kink in the final scene... well, many authors would probably welcome that.

There aren't a plethora of viral posts going around like "What's the worst comment you've ever got?" because while it's not that rare to get one, it's bad to draw more attention to trolls, and if the person really meant well, there's nothing to gain from naming and shaming them; the majority of cases of these will ultimately be down to people's different ideas of what behavior is acceptable and not to any malice.

There aren't viral posts going "Fact check your fucking fics" because we all know that trying to do so is the default position; instead there are viral posts with advice for how to research and fact-check things. The majority of errors that slip through in fanfiction aren't facts that someone wilfully refused to look up, but rather things that they didn't realize they didn't know (the Dunning-Kruger effect is a feature of human cognitive bias and our tendency to fill in the details we deem unimportant, often subconsciously - it doesn't only apply to spectacular cases of idiocy). Most of the time they will have researched, but simply not known that particular question was there to be checked on; so no viral advice would help much anyway besides 'research, research, research' (and maybe 'get more betas', but if they're not experts they're not foolproof either of course).

There aren't viral posts going "I don't need more comments than the amount I get" or "I like comments that have something to say, but if the whole message is basically 'thanks' or 'heart' then that's what the kudos button is for" probably because these are essentially the position of a person who has no complaint with the current system, and viral I Have No Complaint With the Current System!!! posts are slow to gain momentum.

Comments

[phosfate]

Back in the Paper Times, a zine editor I knew got a story submission. She read it and told the author that a little bit of research would improve the story.

The author said, "Research is the hallmark of the amateur writer."

We laughed our asses off.

[cimorene]

... that sounds like a quote though? A quote from WHAT?

[phosfate]

It is hard to tell, because she was unsufferably pretentious. Besides which, not getting paid is the hallmark of the amateur writer.

[phosfate]

^insufferably. Jesus, Ann.

[cimorene]

LOL. True, the more pretentious you are, the more likely to feel like quoting yourself.

[phosfate]

I did ask Mr Google and he had nuthin'.

[alexseanchai]

TRUTH

[hebethen]

If only there was a Kudos button for this post :)

[pensnest]

Who are these obediently absorbent readers who never check? I mean, okay, I don't set out to check facts in stories that are set in situations which aren't familiar to me, but they'd jolly well better feel authentic, and the best way to feel authentic is to get the details right. If something didn't feel right to me, I might well check. Hah. And besides, if I knew better, well, then the author got it wrong.

I remember being thrown way out of a story that referred to a child having bad teeth because his mother couldn't afford to take him to the dentist. Undoubtedly true of the American original, this was an AU set in the UK (kid was going to Hogwarts), where dental treatment was *certainly* free for children at that time (and, I hope and trust, now, and if I were writing a story where it mattered I would be sure to find out). But The Blessed NHS Shall Provide was one of the things the author didn't know she didn't know, and presumably there had been no British beta. Pity, because she's generally an author whose stories I really enjoy reading.

I also get very cross when writers get nobility/titles wrong!

In fact, I find that fact-checking can be really, really helpful. You learn useful things, which can then enhance the story. I've often done something that turns out to be 'homeopathic research', all that reading is distilled into a passing half-sentence in the fic, but I know that half-sentence is correct! And, dammit, we have teh internetz. Research is *easy*! Still, as you say, most people know that, and do it.

Unfortunately, nowadays, one is not supposed to leave anything smacking of criticism as a response to anyone's fic. it's a shame.

The repetitive fandom arguments I remember went something like:

- I leave concrit because without it how can the author improve
vs
- it's mean to leave anything except praise because you don't know why the author is writing or whether they even want to improve

I did come across a story not so long ago which I enjoyed, and where the punctuation of speech was Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, to the point where I just gave up. I thought very seriously about commenting to say so - it was on AO3, and I don't know of any way to do that by private message - and it was pointed out to me that the author might be writing in a foreign language (plausible, and something they might want to correct), or to cure their depression or other issues, or might be brain-damaged… Okay, then.

I'm not sure if this is exactly a response to what you've written here, or just a reaction, sorry!

[cimorene]

It's an interesting subject to me, particularly because country-checking is a bit of a bugbear. I honestly kind of feel like the only excuse for not getting a checker from the country, or resident of it or whatever, when your fic is set there, is if you have no idea how to find one, and the author's note says you tried to find out where one can ask and asks for pointers. If we're talking China or Japan, okay, it might not be worth looking, but there's no excuse whatever for not having a Brit- or American-picker.

[cimorene]

In regards to punctuation... I think it wouldn't be WRONG, or even rude, to leave a comment with a gentle suggestion about formatting that is standard. But because a lot of people DO expect any criticism in a praise sandiwch, if I didn't have something nice to say to lead into it with, I probably would refrain from commenting out of just... nervousness about upsetting them.

[lobelia321]

I liked reading this!

[cimorene]

😆💚

[krait]

I wouldn't link to the actual comment or name names, but I do enjoy hearing about other people's "worst comments." Perhaps because I'm enough of a no-name fan and sporadic writer that I get very few? My one or two odd comments have been brow-raising and, in the long run, entertaining. And that seems to be the sort most people discuss when the topic does come up; I see very few "my worst comment called me three unprintable terms." It's mostly "commenter utterly failed to grasp the purpose of the story/the proclivities of the author/the proper use of grammar." :D

I have definitely seen fics with notes about using simple ♥ or "Kudos!" comments as (additional) kudos on a fic, which is a nice idea.

The thing I always remember first, for some reason, when it comes to Dunning-Kruger and not researching what you never realised you need to research was a post by an artist who had done some kind of night scene. Apparently she put the moon in at an improbable angle or something, and someone kindly told her that this was the kind of error that research would have prevented. Her post was about how she just kind of boggled at the whole thing, because... who would have thought to research the moon? How embarrassing, that a lifetime of seeing the moon had apparently not been enough research.

It stuck with me, because, well. What a good example. We all know the basics, and can avoid egregious errors like sticking stars inside the horns of a crescent moon! But who would have thought, when drawing a picture of something else taking place at night, to go and Google moon positions first? It's not like it was a detailed moon scene; the moon was just an element of 'hey look it's nighttime,' and I'm sure any thought she did put into it would have been along the lines of picking an appropriate phase or getting the craters right or keeping track of the lighting direction it cast on everything else. But somebody else noticed that her moon was crooked, and thought that researching this would have been an obvious step for a more experienced artist.

[phosfate]

My faves were two people who complained about elements in the same story that were specifically warned for/in the notes in great detail. It's fun to craft responses that imply the commenter is a fucking idiot without actually saying so.

[cimorene]

As long as you are comfortable never knowing if they got it or not. Implication is an iffy business, especially with a commenter who already failed to catch something!

[phosfate]

I'm totally comfortable with that as long as they stop talking.

[cimorene]

My examples in the post were real (too obviously?). In the last few years I got a comment that somebody liked the story but their one issue was that it "would have been nice" for Watson to call Sherlock Holmes (the Victorian one) "Sherlock" in it, which was like... okay, I would keep that in mind if I had any desire to write for you, but also, I did consider what dialogue to write and I don't agree? And a bit more recently, someone informed me that she really liked a fic and the only problem was the other character should have topped (there was a single scene near the end of the fic) because in her opinion, that character can ONLY top, like ever, because he just "Is a Top", and now that she mentions it, she also thought that he could've just been more sexually assertive throughout. Presumably to reinforce his Topness.

I always enjoy stories about people's worst comments too, just... because they're generally funny.

This Dunning-Kruger story is great! Thanks for that.

[krait]

You're welcome! I didn't do it justice; her presentation of the whole "who would ever think that my entire life experience is not enough research for something like this?" reaction in a very humourous way. Wish I could find it again.

I don't write enough to get the truly outre comments, but I did have one baffling comment from somebody heavyhandedly complimenting me on not making a relationship romantic because it didn't need to be be slash, and condemning fandom turning every friendship into a sexual thing.

Given that the fic was tagged "preslash if you lean that way," I'm not sure why they thought I would be appreciative of this Gay Relationships Bad approach to fandom. A glance at my account would reveal multiple slash fics and hundreds of bookmarks for slash fics.

Not to mention that, a few comments above theirs, a different commenter wished for slash and I had replied that I had some future scenes planned out that way! Even if it didn't occur to them to look at my other works, they apparently also did not even glance at the other comments on that work before deciding I was on Team No Homo.

[cimorene]

The Team No Homo comment seems very much in character for a segment of commenters. It specifically reminds me of the extremely common comment that the person in question hates your fandom, your ship, that type of pairing, your main trope, your genre, etc, but they still liked your fic anyway! An amazing number of people think that this is an unobjectionable compliment.

[krait]

Yep. I have seen other people describe that kind of comment, often in the form of "this fic was great but I wish the pairing was X/Y instead of A/B." Baffling!

I can understand "usually I don't like Trope X/pairing AxB, but this fic made me enjoy it!" Taking a chance on something that disagreed with you before and discovering you can like it after all is a delightful fannish experience. But I'll never understand "I liked it except for the entire central premise; wish that had been completely different!" Like, what about this could you possibly have enjoyed? The chapter titles?

[cimorene]

I can UNDERSTAND 'I dislike your pairing, fandom, this character etc', and I've had to suppress the urge to say it before, and I probably have said it in my callow youth... but I do say it is categorically a faux pas because there simply are too many people who are naturally offended by it in all the discussions I've seen of it. I've been seriously pissed off by well-meaning comments of that nature too, even knowing they obviously are intending to be complimentary, because, well, there's never any need to preface your compliment by denigrating the recipient's taste, which is inherently what it does. By definition, it's their pairing or their fandom or whatever, and they obviously do like it. From that point of view, I derive no special satisfaction from knowing someone who hates the pairing I love so passionately nonetheless enjoyed my writing; like, well, thanks for the compliment and good for you I guess, glad you didn't suffer too much from your awful ordeal of slumming it here in my duck pond...

[krait]

Oh, I agree. I specifically altered it to "I usually don't like X" in my example, because of the change in tone; it implies the commenter has tried Thing X several times and had mixed results, rather than blanket dislike or refusal to try implied by "I don't like X." Someone who's repeatedly tried something despite spotty results must have enough investment in it that I can be happy my fic was a rewarding experience.

But I can see even that might upset some people, especially if the commenter gets too specific about the ratio of good results to bad, or goes on to commit some further gaffe like 'but it still would have been better if' or naming specific fics/authors that failed to appeal to them or such. Don't let the back half of your comment undo your starting premise of this is something I'm actively invested in!