csi:ny babble

[cimorene]

oh my! no scenes of mac and danny together in 104! i guess i have to watch 105 tonight too! plus i'm getting so good at culling caps--got this batch down to 77.

and the point of this post was how legitimate schoolwork provides me with some happy warmfuzzy mac and danny feelings. the lecture and reading were on [nordic*] men's studies.

When women no longer accept men's dominance--or what Kimmel calls the masculine sense of "entitlement"--relations between men also change. Men open up to aspects of male relationships that were formerly more hidden, and there is a process of androgynisation, even if many traditional conditions remain in force.

Greater diversity among men is one important issue in this context. The diversity element has an appeal among many men who are neutral or negative in other gender-equal status issues. Often, these men have experienced the negative effects of a "monolithic" male culture, for example in business leadership or the military.... studies have undervalued relations between men for explaining men's behaviour.1

italics his, bold mine.

according to my interpretation of the above, he's saying that women calling men on their assumptions by questioning their behaviour towards women actually directly impacts them in a deeper way and thus changes their behaviour towards other men as well--my conjecture is by becoming aware of and thereby shedding some of the rigid Rules of Manhood which bind them.

the concept of "different masculinities", different "ways of being a man", is something that floats around men's studies. i think that's what the second paragraph means about diversity among men--a more diverse array of valid ways to be a man.

military men have a very narrow masculinity/patterncard, as the second paragraph implies, and i venture that the more hardcore the part of "the Service" the more hardcore the boundaries. and the more hardcore the boundaries, i can imagine, the more men may emotionally rebel against them when they're free to do so.

danny has a very different masculinity from mac's. as stellaluna_ pointed out yesterday or the day before, mac seems to still base a big part of his identity on being a marine. i think you can probably see revenants of his marine discipline in his "that's nice. let's get to work" attitude. he seems to substitute suit and tie for uniform, the way that tie is so rarely loosened.

the implications of that text that i find so provocative are the ideas that his exposure to strong women colleagues in his post-marines working environment would have made mac at least a little more emotionally open and aware--and that the simple fact of being in the marines may a) increase his appreciation for danny's character and b) make him more aware of danny's sexuality, flirtiness, and the other elements of danny's masculinity that aren't a part of tough!marine!masculinity.

(eta that my point is: mac is in a position i think to be uniquely aware of the differences in these masculinities. he's got a leg on each side. Being a Marine is still a big part of his life; he probably thinks about it for instance. yet he's been out of it for long enough that his surface behaviour patterns aren't all stereotypical. like, i don't think he's mentally wedded to marine masculinity--he judges people carefully but very decisively and often stringently--but he's also intelligent and fair-minded, he just isn't usually *flexible* on what he views as his moral points.)

is danny simultaneously fascinating/alien and refreshing? does mac puzzle and brood over him because he finds him a bit of a puzzle and that's what mac does with puzzles? i'm sure he enjoys danny's company for many reasons, some of which he's consciously aware of and some of which he isn't. do some of his conscious reasons have to do with the kind of guy danny is--does mac ponder the ways danny's different from marines, maybe in idle thought, maybe trying to pin down why he's so fun to be around?

(of course a police force IS rather homosocial too, but we know that at least mac's csi unit isn't. )

eta again--according to our lecturer, two of the areas which need more research in the nordic lands? "men and nationalism" and "men and the military". heh. i probably would've drawn a little heart in my notes but i was writing too fast.



*the nordic lands=sweden, norway, denmark, finland and iceland

1: from Can men do it? Men and Gender Equality - the Nordic Experience by Øystein Gullvåg Holter.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/stellaluna_/]

Ah, so much good stuff here.

I like the idea that, alongside the fact that Mac *does* base his identity in his Marine service, post-Marine women colleagues would also have served to influence his outlook and emotional awareness.

I mean, there's Claire, who -- whatever her personality may have been -- related to Mac in ways which are more expected and "normal" for him: she's his girlfriend, then his fiancee, then his wife. The relationship is based in romantic norms. On the other hand, he also has Stella, who I think completely flips a lot of preconceptions on their heads: not by virtue of her being tough, or not *just* that, but because she's simply his *friend*. And, ultimately, his best friend, I'd venture.

It's also true that, despite his buttoned-up Marine outlook, he's not very tied in to that stringent definition of masculinity. As rigid as some of his moral judgments are, we don't see him display the stereotypical machismo or sexism. He's more open than that.

Then, of course, there's Danny, who could not be further away from the ideal of the military man if he tried. I like the idea of Danny-as-puzzle (and yeah, Mac *does* like his puzzles), and that there's an unconscious part of Mac that likes him for the fact he *is* so different. Which suggests that Mac, with him, could *also* be different, and not have to stick to learned (military) behavior patterns.

It's like...I'm not sure I can articulate this, because it's just forming in my head. As closed off emotionally as he is, there also have been changes that have taken place in Mac's outlook, post-service. And Danny seems a chance for him to open up in ways that he hasn't had the chance to, yet, by virtue of being a man who's *not* in the military. Or something like that. (Not that this is conscious on Mac's part.)

i may try again and make more sense tomorrow, but...

[cimness.livejournal.com]

Which suggests that Mac, with him, could *also* be different, and not have to stick to learned (military) behavior patterns.

yes. because, though mac doesn't think this consciously, the expectations for other people's behaviours are integral to how YOU behave. danny doesn't have military behaviour expectations. is mac to just... intuit what danny expects? what DOES danny expect? do you just respond naturally... ? and what's the natural response to flirting, flirting back? [i was noticing how they do this thing--they both CONSTANTLY steal glances. they look quickly when the other's looking away. and they take turns. danny looks at mac, then as soon as he glances away mac looks at danny, then as soon as HE looks away danny looks back at him... of course sometimes they look straight at each other too. but the turn-taking is very often. and i was also noticing how frequently danny licks his lips when he looks at mac. helloooooooooooo. what's mac's natural response to that--the broken long gaze with all these little nervous lip-licks and pauses and looking up through his eyelashes? how are you supposed to respond? --i'm sure mac can't quite decide. inasmuch as he catalogues these things *consciously*, which... is debatable.]

And Danny seems a chance for him to open up in ways that he hasn't had the chance to, yet, by virtue of being a man who's *not* in the military. Or something like that.

because danny doesn't exist in the masculinity of the military, has never existed inside it or any other similar society. so he's a different species because of how different his masculinity is. but he's not a woman either, he's essentially VERY male all the same. (in "a man a mile" mac likens the sanddogs or whatever they are to the marines and danny's like "clearly he would choose his family over the group because that's what anyone would do"--he's so positive, and mac doesn't know how to explain it to him).

even people who are terrified of expressing their emotions also in a way long to do so. and mac does. and he's able to realise now that, counter to what military masculinity might teach, men can have complex deeply emotional relationships full of layers of passion and commitment and meaning. it's like he can *feel* the truth of this now from inside. (obviously, he would never consciously have thought that it was impossible before, but people can't help absorbing what their societies teach, and that WAS his society, one which he adopted and devoted himself to passionately.)

maybe he didn't realise certain emotional components of male-male friendship *could* even exist before claire and stella put him in a little more touch with his emotions. they made him more open, more ready to perceive or experience or--whatever. and then he met danny and suddenly it was like mac *himself* had the possibility of becoming some new danny-like species of man, because of how different danny is and the fact that mac relates to him, feels about him, in a way that is new to mac in terms of other men--maybe because the feelings were too deeply buried before, but still, it feels new.

Re: i may try again and make more sense tomorrow, but...

[http://users.livejournal.com/stellaluna_/]

yes. because, though mac doesn't think this consciously, the expectations for other people's behaviours are integral to how YOU behave. danny doesn't have military behaviour expectations. is mac to just... intuit what danny expects? what DOES danny expect? do you just respond naturally... ? and what's the natural response to flirting, flirting back?

Right, Danny doesn't think of terms of yes-sir and no-sir and dress blues. He doesn't have the same rigid ideas of proper behavior and emotional expression that Mac would have cultivated in the marines; he's much more open. With *all* of his emotions, good and bad. So those social cues go against the ones Mac's been taught, but he also senses that the military social cues are not, perhaps, appropriate here. And flails for how to respond. (And, oh, the stolen glances. They *kill* me. So much covert looking to see the other guy's response. To everything.)

But yes, Danny is still very masculine, very *male*. Within that framework, he's also able to be emotionally expressive. Along with that, absolutely -- part of Mac wants to express his own emotions, no matter how terrified he is of doing so, or how much he locks them away and tries to think he's beyond all that, that he's a creature of logic and procedure.

counter to what military masculinity might teach, men can have complex deeply emotional relationships full of layers of passion and commitment and meaning. it's like he can *feel* the truth of this now from inside. (obviously, he would never consciously have thought that it was impossible before, but people can't help absorbing what their societies teach, and that WAS his society, one which he adopted and devoted himself to passionately.)

[nod] I also think that in the military, Mac might have formed some tight emotional bonds, ones that were born out of duress and extreme situations. The whole brothers-in-arms thing, the group he cites in "A Man A Mile." But even that's couched in very specific, very *non*-emotional terms. It can't be expressed in terms of love or even best-friendship. It's very straightforward, very outwardly uncomplicated. Deeper meaning is discouraged. Even, *especially*, any military relationships that involved sexuality would have to be hidden and secret, and unacknowledged.

But, with Danny, suddenly there are all these new possibilities: that tight bond *with* the passion and love and meaning, and with the possibility -- the certainty -- that all of that could be outwardly expressed. Post-military, he had Claire and Stella, who were...societally-acceptable people with whom he could form bonds, even if with Stella there's the constant argument with outsiders that no, they're just friends, no *really*. And that's a step for him, even as rigid as he still is. Danny? Danny represents another huge step forward, the potential to *truly* be his own kind of man, outside the constraints of the society (ies) in which he's been raised.

Which, of course, he yearns for even as it scares the everliving hell out of him.

Re: i may try again and make more sense tomorrow, but...

[cimness.livejournal.com]

He doesn't have the same rigid ideas of proper behavior and emotional expression that Mac would have cultivated in the marines; he's much more open. With *all* of his emotions, good and bad.

Danny is still very masculine, very *male*. Within that framework, he's also able to be emotionally expressive.

i wonder if the behaviour codes of the american military don't descend from nordic behaviour norms (they also don't like to show emotion--even between parents and children! they don't hug their kids very often as a rule--and believe in sucking it up--even TODAY it's virtually impossible to get some kinds of over the counter medication and it's even hard to find *band aids* because even nordic *women* are supposed to just suck up the pain physically as well as emotionally) instead of southern european. and danny's culture is southern european. wherever he grew up--i'm sorry, i really don't know that much about new york city, but--the bronx or... brooklyn? anyway, his culture's clearly either italian or latin or both. of course both of them are *american* so people don't think about it as much, but america contains so many cultures that can be so different as to impede communication and understanding between them.

So those social cues go against the ones Mac's been taught, but he also senses that the military social cues are not, perhaps, appropriate here. And flails for how to respond.

i think he knows he DOESN'T want to give the military-dictated/expected response, but doesn't quite know what he wants to do instead. a lot of times when he and danny are talking, like in "a man a mile" where it happens several times, he's just studying danny so intently and he has this look of sort of surprise, and like he's thinking really, really hard under the surface. then he often hesitates before he speaks, and speaks very deliberately.

but i think he's able to forget these things and respond more naturally when he gets involved in the discussion and in danny. like in "a man a mile" where he and danny are arguing about whether danny's intuition is an acceptable way to proceed without evidence and mac's moving closer and closer and he's right there staring right at danny, and he's like, "and you can't do it your way, either!" when danny says he can't do cases mac's way. and then danny seems to be taken aback by the intensity there (probably also the proximity, heh) and his gaze flickers around a little and he looks down and gives in in a more subdued voice. but, wow, it's like mac takes the whole thing *really personally*--and not like he's angry but like he wants danny to understand and agree for danny's own sake. (guh.)

i think that's part of what mac consciously realises as danny's appeal, that danny's able to call up these very real responses in him and make him feel and that they can interact naturally in a ... kind of profound and honest way. that danny really has the power to engage him, and it feels especially good to him because of how used he is to not really... engaging.

But even that's couched in very specific, very *non*-emotional terms.

i think mac has always acknowledged to himself, for the most part, that those brother-bonds *are* emotional--because he's pretty intelligent, and he may not self-analyse but he doesn't explicitly lie and doublethink to himself either; he's too dedicated to fairness and the truth. but that society just hates the word emotion almost as much as it hates hugging hello and kissing goodbye and saying "i love you" on the telephone to your best friend.

the potential to *truly* be his own kind of man, outside the constraints of the society (ies) in which he's been raised.

i think that's really right. i mean, i think in a way mac yearns to be... different. but i can't really articulate anything else about that. just... hunh. never thought of that before.