so sick of being obliquely called a druggie because i take fucking PAXIL.

[cimorene]

also i'm totally sick and tired of jenny's medicineophobic rants.  i don't even remember how it came up, but on the way to new mex she unsolicitedly told me that she believes that whenever people get depressed, there's an "issue" they need to deal with and that medication is just AVOIDING the issue by not dealing with it, and the only really healthy way to treat depression? is with "lifestyle and diet."  okay, that might work if the reason you were depressed was because you were an ex-druggie who refused to leave an abusive husband--not to get personal!--because obviously, eating regularly and hooking up with your soulmate is going to make a difference, even if you find a fundamentalist religion at the same time.  but EVERYONE IS NOT YOU, fucktard.  some people have problems with brain chemistry that cannot be solved by diet, sweet jesus. 

she also disclaimed--i was about to relax, when i saw she was going to--but then she said "maybe you don't believe that"--not "maybe that wouldn't work for you" or anything like that. 

so after gritting my teeth i replied that i didn't believe food could be used to treat depression in all cases and that in many it wouldn't do much.  she said with some asperity and a touch of, i don't know, exasperation? that "food is made out of chemicals."

well fuck me, gosh darn it, you're right.  i'll just find out how many FUCKING CARROTS i need to balance out my SEROTONIN RE-UPTAKE.

oh, go flagellate yourself somewhere private, for god's sake.  hi.  welcome to the world.  sometimes we use scientific evidence and research to support our ideas.  i know it sounds wild and crazy, but i believe it's a pretty cool idea.  of course, some people might not believe that.

Comments

[aeslis]

oh fucking christ, this reminds me of one of my.. well, was my friends, can't really call her that now anymore. she's got disease that requires medicine to treat, due to an incorrect chemical balance in her body. basically, if she doesn't take this medicine, she doesn't have enough chemical to help her smaller muscles move. i forget the specifics. but yeah, so, she'd like, not be able to breathe, among other things.

yet she refused for the LONGEST time to take anti-depressants for her depression because--get this--she didn't want to be DEPENDANT on a DRUG. um. hello! you ARE. you cannot LIVE without your mestanin! you would not be able to eat! but apparently since it's a mental thing, she believes that if she can't overcome it by her own power, she's weak.

urgh stab stab stab. x_____x

um. so yeah, she finally started taking them and got much better real fast, end of story. but, point is, my sympathies dealing with dumb people who don't realize it's a chemical thing.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

oh, she knows it's a chemical thing. she just thinks that since "food is made out of chemicals," you can just, what, experiment randomly until your food has given your body what it needs to inhibit that overzealous serotonin re-uptake or whateverthefuck. in fact, she has VERY mystical, religious ideas about food in general. well, actually, the raw diet IS her religion, and she's basically a fundamentalist about it, so yeah.

[perhael.livejournal.com]

People who talk like that make me want to slap some sense into them.

To be completely honest, lifestyle and diet do help fight depression. And yes, so does getting heavily involved in religion, but I see religion as just another drug people get on to dull the pain, so I'm not at all in favour of that.

My point being: regular exercise and a healthy diet go a long way (and do clear up chemical imbalances, honestly), but paxil and the likes of it can be a very useful support. I'm not at all against it, I take it too, and if people think I'm mentally weak because I do so, well, maybe they're right. But if I were weak physically, I would take meds too. And I don't feel the slightest bit of shame for taking meds for depression.

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

oh, go flagellate yourself somewhere private, for god's sake.

word.

oh, yes. it's so easy to change your diet and lifestyle when you can't convince yourself that getting out of bed is a worthwhile endeavor.

[perhael.livejournal.com]

Nobody said it would be easy. But it *does* help.

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

i don't underestimate the effects of diet and exersize. what i was trying to point out is that there are some forms of depression that make even those fundamental steps near impossible. and instead of telling people they should be able to do what feels impossible, prescribing a drug that will allow them to move forward seems more directly productive.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

exactly. i fully remember having BARELY enough strength to get it together to quit school to allow my parents to force me to eat--i knew i needed that but almost didn't care enough to do the work that made it possible. i certainly didn't have the resources to eat more often, or better, than i was eating.

ps

[cimness.livejournal.com]

it occurs to me that jenny would consider that--moving away to allow my parents to feed me when i knew i could not--to fall under the category of "addressing the problem/source of the depression."

it occurs to me likewise that her "all depression has a source" theory and her "address with diet/excercise" theory are somewhat contradictory. is she saying that someone might still be depressed enough once they "fixed" the "problem" to require treatment by diet or exercise? is she saying "depression should be treated with diet and exercise" AND "depression cannot be fully treated by diet and exercise [if the "root" cannot be/has not been addressed]" simultaneously?

if pressed she would probably admit she believes everything requires both, but that's not what she's said in the past. god this just pisses me off. enough to make me quibble with phrasing. >.>

Re: ps

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

you're totally right. the address with diet/exersize theory uses exactly the same logic as the address with drugs theory. it's all about chemical balance, she just has a phobia about the drugs, clearly.

and i actually agree with her about sources and such. but the chemical-biological element makes it impossible for some people to ever get to the 'source.' i feel like comments like hers reveal ignorance and inexperience more than anything else. i've known too many people who have suffered with severe depression to ever criticize the steps anyone has to take to get out of it. if some people can do it without drugs, more power to them. but they can fuck right off if they want to tell other people that what they need to do is the wrong way to do it.

and i don't blame you for being pissed off.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

it helps, but it doesn't fix. in other words, there is no combination of bad diet and bad lifestyle that will produce the same symptoms as chronic clinical depression. for me, it gave a sort of low-level, gentle upward pressure--when i was already on antidepressants. and through the antidepressant veil, i can still hear and feel teh crazy, so i know that the lifestyle and diet have not made my medications superfluous, as jenny seems to believe (from my general happiness here).

[annlarimer.livejournal.com]

Dear Jenny:

Shit is also made out of chemicals. Why don't you eat some of that, and let the rest of us know how it goes?

Love,

Ann

[guinevere33.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether I want to smack her or force her to read an entire biology textbook at gunpoint. Just because two things are made up of molecules - which makes them chemicals - does not mean they are the SAME. What a dumbass.

Reminds me of the GMO protester with the sign that read "I won't eat DNA!"

[cimness.livejournal.com]

H;ALKSJF;ASLHDF.

did you see annlarimer's reply? "dear jenny, poop is also made out of chemicals. why don't you try eating some and let the rest of us know how it goes."

i wonder what will happen in homeschool when perrin gets to high-school level bio textbooks. will he go, "but wait, your body has to digest enzymes." or will he go "hey mom, this textbook is wrong!" will jenny and taum read it for the first time? will they finally believe, or will it be the only scientific book information they DON'T think you can trust?

religion does strange things to people.

taum doesn't use sunscreen.

like, yeah.

[hollsh.livejournal.com]

Question: Are they planning on keeping him away from other kids his age until he's like 18?

What if when he gets older, he tells them he wants to go to normal school?

I don't know, the situation kind of reminds me of an Indian family I used to know. They raised their son in Hindu and wouldn't let him live any other way. He resented them for it, and when he got a little older, he would bring home bags of hamburgers and other beef foods, and eat it in front of them. He actually became a pretty big asshole.

I just wonder if he'll resent them for sheltering him years from now when he realizes it.

[hollsh.livejournal.com]

*seethes* What the FUCK??

Someone needs to bring her back to PLANET FUCKING REALITY!

Depression in a medical condition, and like stupidity, isn't curable. You have to be on proper medications to balance out the seratonin, it's an issue with your brain, not with your stomach.

I wonder, would she be saying the same thing if you had diabetes or a thyroid disease? Because they're both examples of other illnesses where chemical levels aren't right.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

you know, i've often wondered that about diabetes and thyroid diseases and, you know, stuff. and i honestly don't know how her religion deals with it. i'm not sure if i've ever brought it up exactly. but i do know that she doesn't believe in pain medication, or migraine medication, or, you know, like. medication for nausea or. indigestion. or birth control pills.

[hollsh.livejournal.com]

Has she ever HAD a migraine? I know when Chris gets his, he's vomiting because he's in so much pain. Plus he can't see.

As for pain medication, if she was in a car accident or something and got her leg ripped off, would she honestly say no to morphine?