WHAT.

[cimorene]

Did... did she actually just call someone else out for using gendered language, describe them as whoring and then declare that nobody had the right to tell her that 'whoring' was gendered language? o_O

Did I even see that?

For the love of pastry, fandom, put on some pants.

Comments

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

In the midst of epic stupid, we all need a moment of humor. I think that was it.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

True. I LOL'ed.

[revulo.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what's going on...I feel like I should try to figure it out.

[fairestcat]

Just when I thought this whole thing couldn't descend to further levels of stupid, the internets persist in proving me wrong.

*sigh*

[Edited to correct my spelling. Wow, am I tired right now.]

[fairestcat]

and now she has locked it, which is possibly my fault for leaving her a comment pointing out that if she's so offended by people on the internet finding her public post and daring to disagree with her and call her out on her problematic statements, well, that's what a friendslock is for.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

Ah well, don't blame yourself. After all, any small child possessing common sense could easily have given her the same advice.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Medievalist's latest post is a further (comments-locked) defense of the term "blog-whoring," informing everyone that it's totally common and everyone on the internet says it and whatever, shut up, etc.

This is really an extremely telling moment in this discussion. I'm fucking fascinated, in the train-wreck sense, to see how people are going to respond to it.

Because-- oh, and btw, Willow hasn't just been accused of blog-whoring, she's also been accused of "orcing"-- you know, orcing! It's like trolling, except with an ugly, rageful, quasi-human dark-skinned, dreadlocked monster-- because this particular offense is *so blatant*, basically, that any defense of it really puts the lie to the people who are claiming, you know, "oh, we're reasonable people, we'd never defend racism, we want to try hard and fail better, we want to learn and grow," and so on.

Because that's always followed, it seems, by a "but--!"

Like, "I'm totally open to criticism, but your criticism isn't academic enough," or "but you don't understand Celtic mythology well enough" or "but you're so rude in the way that you said it" or "but I was trying so hard, that totally counts, right" or "but you're over-reacting, it wasn't that bad" or "but you're just looking for things to get upset about" or "but it's so haaaard to be whiiiite" or whatever the random excuse is for circling the wagons and defending whatever it was that people are criticising you or your friends for.

And the points that have been argued up to this point, well, I think people can successfully cloud the issues with these arguments well enough, I think, to really confuse people as to whether you are actually just arguing about Celtic mythology (but all horses are black!) or online etiquette (how dare you comment on my public post!) or intellectualism vs. emotionalism or whatever, and not actually attempting to shut down and/or divert discussions of racism by any means whatsoever.

But this-- accusing Willow of "orcing" and "blog-whoring"-- is so incredibly beyond the pale, I feel pretty safe in saying it's *literally* indefensible. That is, it's indefensible unless you basically want to come out and say, "no, seriously, Willow is an uppity bitch and I'm totally okay with racist/sexist slurs being used against her, and I'm going to defend that, and the people who said it."

So I'm really interested to see who's going to sign up for that.

What I really wish would happen, of course, and what *should* happen, right now, is a massive, instant backlash of "get off my side, you're making my side look REALLY FUCKING BAD," and a clear understanding among all involved that "whore" and "orc" are, at the VERY LEAST, words that have highly unfortunate connotations in a discussion like this, and should probably not have been used, and that Willow is owed an apology.

But I won't hold my breath.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

... Wow, I didn't realize this comment was so massive until I posted it. Um. Hi, I've been off the internet all day and I came back and started following links and got mad. *waves*

[copracat]

I predict a booming silence.

You'd think that someone with a trained mastery of words would have been able to think of a less offensively connoted phrase like, say, 'attention seeking'.

/sarcasm.

Actually, on second thoughts, it may be a while before my sarcasm is turned off.

[anatsuno.livejournal.com]

WORD.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

I actually think the "orcing" thing is more shocking than the "whoring" one if not for the LOL-factor of claiming whore is gender-neutral. I mean, in that she actually went there! way. The latter claim is appalling, but so completely laughable that it's harder to take seriously. But the "orc" one just blows my mind in a completely different way, you know? Like, if she managed to MISS the Tolkien/black/dreadlocks/savage thing? Or if she even did it on purpose?

My brain has a hard time stretching to encompass those insults; I'm outraged, but more bemused than angry. Whereas the whole "O.I.C. now that the white majority of society is in an abusive relationship with its racial minorities, but the minorities are the abuser" round had me more spitting-nails-mad (it's a fault but one cannot laugh at it! You have to take it seriously when it's such a common refrain of the Poor White Men, the Only Marginalized Group That It's OK to Victimize!).

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I actually think the "orcing" thing is more shocking than the "whoring" one if not for the LOL-factor of claiming whore is gender-neutral. I mean, in that she actually went there! way. The latter claim is appalling, but so completely laughable that it's harder to take seriously. But the "orc" one just blows my mind in a completely different way, you know? Like, if she managed to MISS the Tolkien/black/dreadlocks/savage thing? Or if she even did it on purpose?

Yeah, I mean, I can kiiiind of see where you'd be coming from, to substitute "orc" for "troll"-- it's just one of those cutesy I-heart-Tolkien nerdier-than-thou injoke things, right? Right??? Like I might make a post to my flist saying "oh she's from House Sparklypoo" rather than "she's a special snowflake" in the same kind of way, and people would know what I meant. So I can see it as her way of unthinkingly trying to establish her Real Fantasy Fan/Writer bona fides, in the face of this *outsider* coming in with her *issues* (because of course Willow isn't a REAL Fantasy Reader, just blog-whoring.)

But of course, to just think of it as totally innocent geek-speak, you have to be totally unaware of any *problems* with Tolkien's allegories re: race, imperialism, etc., -- totally, completely unaware of any existing critique whatsoever. And, I don't know, maybe never have seen the movie, because even if you've never heard people discussing that kind of thing before (hmmm, I think someone posted about it just recently, actually! Was it DeepaD in one of the original posts that kicked off this whole thing? Gosh, I think it was!) the movie makes the visual metaphor pretty fucking obvious that you don't want to be calling a black woman an "orc."

So, you know. Completely fucking clueless and ignorant. Check. And yet still setting herself up as a better anti-racist activist than those meeeeeean angry PoC because SHE'S going to put together a Diversity E-Zine! I don't even KNOW, man. (ETA: That was mac_stone, not medievalist, but still.)

(Oh, and in terms of "why don't you DO something besides just blog-whoring, you attention-seeker," I assume they mean something like the People of Color in Science Fiction and Fantasy Carnival (http://ofcolour.blogspot.com/). Created by Willow. Which you *might* have heard of if you're actually an online fantasy/sf fan with a sincere interest in diversity. Or maybe not. Thanks to skywardprodigal for pointing this out in another post.)

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

Because-- oh, and btw, Willow hasn't just been accused of blog-whoring, she's also been accused of "orcing"-- you know, orcing! It's like trolling, except with an ugly, rageful, quasi-human dark-skinned, dreadlocked monster-- because this particular offense is *so blatant*, basically, that any defense of it really puts the lie to the people who are claiming, you know, "oh, we're reasonable people, we'd never defend racism, we want to try hard and fail better, we want to learn and grow," and so on.

Dear Racist White Person,

You're supposed to cloak your racism when you spew it in public. You know, use coded phrases so that people won't realize that you're being a racist asshole. Please go back to racism school until you have learned how to insult PoC in such a way that isn't obvious to everyone with a bit of comment sense.

love love, the internet.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Srsly. It's like The Canada Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RHVoFpncgA) over there or something.

Mike: Okay, okay, calm down. Mustn't hate, mustn't hate...
Crow: ...at least so overtly.
Mike: Exactly right. Must disguise our hate, just a little.

[guinevere33.livejournal.com]

Dude. WHAT? How can you be that stupid and still find the "ENTER" key?

[copracat]

There was a whole discussion in comments somewhere about how whoring is no longer gendered. Dictionaries were wielded. The distance of a dictionary from the first google result was bandied about as a measure of the value of the dictionary's definition. It was a little mind-boggling but not worth your time reading.

It is kind of hilarious that someone who hangs out with people whose job is to get themselves read is asserting that someone of wanting to get their blog read is a bad thing. Sorry, what?

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it's totally not worth my time.

OTOH, I've got the day off. Where is this fabulously idiotic dictionary-battle?

[copracat]

Sadly, it was in mac-stone's now locked post. I've sent you the dictionary comment which I still had in my inbox. I am unsure of the etiquette of reposting it here, both the act reposting and your cim's opinion, as it's your her journal.

Are formerly public comments in subsequently locked posts eligible for reposting by person who were not participants of the original conversation? I'm sure the whole thing is out there. I expect I wasn't the only person who thumb-tacked mac-stone's post.

Edited to fix journal attribution. Doh!

[cimness.livejournal.com]

Opinions on this are divided. Journalistically, they would certainly be fair game, wouldn't they? I mean, it's like going out in public when you KNOW the papparazzi are around. Even if you later get tinted windows, once you made your image publically available you can't claim it back - just like you can't, for example, try to make people give back, say, a piece of art or music that you were distributing for free if you later change your mind and start charging.

Of course, the person whose comment you would be reposting would no doubt consider it rude. But I'm all in favour of preserving for posterity such things as present, you know, pieces of a debate.

[copracat]

I'm fine with it. I expect that there's screencaps being assembled at this very moment. I believe this is the link to the original: http://mac-stone.livejournal.com/22617.html?thread=182361

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

Kathryn - Kat - Allen (katallen) replied to a comment left by minnow (minnow1212) in a LiveJournal post. The comment they replied to was:

Yes, men and boys have also been prostitutes. That said, the word as an insult gets used a hell of a lot *more* against women, as part of a really long tradition of representation by men of female sexuality as evil, dirty, etc.

This isn't even a case of the dictionary definition being neutral and the connotations being gendered: if you go here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/bro wse/whore

there's a lot more reference to women than to men.

Their reply was:

Your choice is interesting -- it isn't the first definition that comes up on Google. (see above for the links) Actually, even taken out of context, whore's a somewhat antiquated vulgarity when used to mean a female prostitute and I don't hear it that commonly used against women these days... people are more likely to pick slut, cunt, and bitch seem to be the more common.

And I definitely hear whoring more often as a gender neutral pattern of behavior.


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[cimness.livejournal.com]

LOLLLLLL! She's really attached to her connotationlessness, isn't she? It's like "gay" as an insult! It doesn't have anything to do with GAY people, so it's not homophobic! It totally just means STUPID, not in like, an EFFEMINATE way!

[unusualmusic.livejournal.com]

"Whore" is antiquated???? REALLLY???????????????? gender-neutral????????


Does she REALLY think we're that stupid?

[copracat]

I think she's probably just young. I remember being 17 and thinking that feminist activism was no longer necessary. Why, all the men I knew treated me like a person and I was not in any way discriminated against for my gender. (*headdesk*)

Actually, I feel a bit rubbish saying that because it smacks of youthism. I've known plenty young persons who are/were way more aware and eloquent than I ever was. I just don't believe katallen is one of them.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but I don't think katallen is 17.

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

-copracat
[info]copracat
2009-01-19 12:06 pm (local) (link) Track This
I think she's probably just young. I remember being 17 and thinking that feminist activism was no longer necessary. Why, all the men I knew treated me like a person and I was not in any way discriminated against for my gender. (*headdesk*)

katallen was born in 1964 according to her LJ profile

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's just brilliant rationalization of remarkably poor word choice.

'Tis a pity she's....